Informal meeting of EU Defence Ministers: Remarks by EU High Representative Borrell

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Yesterday, we had a long [Informal] Foreign Affairs Council meeting, and today I hope we will have a shorter [Informal meeting of] Defence Ministers with very important issues on the table.

The most important one is the European Union’s military support to Ukraine.

Inside this support, the training of the soldiers plays [an important role]. So, we will discuss how to increase our training mission (EUMAM Ukraine). The target is about 60,000 soldiers trained, we will increase this target – I will tell you by how many at the end of the day. But this is the most successful training mission ever done by the European Union. To train 60,000 – and maybe more – soldiers is remarkable. Many countries have contributed to that.

We will discuss about the possibility of opening a cell in Kyiv in order to increase our coordination with the Ukrainian Armed Forces there.

Yesterday, Minister [for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, Dmytro] Kuleba was asking about the delays in supplying ammunition, supplying the material that has been promised. We will have a look at all that, where we are in our commitments.

It is clear that if the Ukrainians have our support they can fight successfully. The operation in Kursk is a good example of that. It is an audacious strategic action, successful, that shows that it depends on us, but they are ready to continue fighting as far as they have our material support.

The F-16 [fighter jets] are now being used to try to stop the attacks of Russia against Ukrainian cities. Last Monday, 300 [missiles and] drones were launched against Kyiv, and again the electricity system of Ukraine. It is clear that Putin wants to put Ukraine into the dark and the cold in the next winter, by destroying all electric capacity in Ukraine.

We will have a meeting in order to assess where we are in our commitments and how we can increase it.

Many pledges have been done since June, especially on air defence, and in face of massive attacks to Ukraine and Ukrainian cities, these days have been the worst of the war against civilians. It is clear that we will have to react. [Minister] Kuleba gave us precise data and today the Minister of Defence [of Ukraine] will be with us. Mr [Rustem] Umerov will be in close contact with the defence ministers.

Yesterday, we discussed about lifting restrictions on the use of weapons against Russian military targets. I have my personal opinion about that, certainly. I have to have personal opinions if I want to push consensus among Member States. But it is clear that this is something that belongs to each one of them. It is not an EU policy. Those countries sending long-range missiles and other weaponry to Ukraine will decide each one on their side how they can be used.

But I think it is ridiculous to say that allowing targeting inside Russian territory means to be in a war against Moscow. We are not in a war against Moscow – I think it is ridiculous to say that. We are supporting Ukraine. Ukraine is being attacked from the Russian territory, and according to international law, it can react attacking the places from where it is attacked. So, there is nothing strange in that. You can agree or not, but it is not to be in a war against Moscow if some Member States do that.

We are supporting Ukraine; we are not in a war with Russia. We are supporting Ukraine but there are different means of supporting Ukraine, and one of the most important means is by training their soldiers and providing fighter jets – that is what we are doing. EUMAM [Ukraine] is the most successful training mission that we have done in our history.

Then we will have a look at what is happening in the Red Sea, our efforts to strengthen the security of navigation in the Red Sea, and several efforts to increase our defence capacity, in particular on the industrial side.

We will welcome the new Chairs from the European Parliament for subcommittees SEDE [Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann] and representatives from the United Nations [UN Under-Secretary-General Jean-Pierre Lacroix] and NATO [NATO Assistant Secretary General Angus Lapsley].

During the lunch, we will discuss about the future of our [EU] Satellite Centre [SatCen] – the eyes of Europe, something that allows us to see directly what is going on in the land every day, anyplace in the world]. It is a unique European Union capability; I have enjoyed it [and] I have taken good advantage of it. We have a geospatial intelligence; it contributes to our security. I did my best to make this centre high on the agenda of the European Union and in the public perception. We will have a look at the budget for this centre in the next years.

Q&A 

Q: [Will the] European Union [train] Ukrainians soldiers also on Ukrainian soil?

It is not on the agenda.

We are thinking about having a Coordination Cell in Ukraine, but there is no agreement to train Ukrainian soldiers on Ukrainian soil with European instructors.

Q: What is your personal view on it?

I want to listen to the colleagues before.

Q: Germany yesterday toughened up on migration. Would you say it is a fair position to set up migration centres outside the European Union? Is this feasible?

Migration is not in our portfolio.

Q: I understand that you are still following the discussions. What is your position on this?

This is something that you have to ask to Commissioner [for Home Affairs, Ylva] Johansson.

Q: Yesterday, you met the Foreign Minister of Türkiye [Hakan Fidan] and you said that the European Union started again [inaudible] Türkiye a member of the European Union. Did you remember that right now there are so many Turkish opposition leaders in jail? Have you spoken about human rights, about freedom?

We discussed about everything that matters for our bilateral relations and for the geopolitical environment. We discussed mainly about how we can face the challenges that affect both of us, and in particular the stability in the Eastern Mediterranean, and the most important issue that affects our relationship which is the Cyprus issue. But we did not go into internal questions in Türkiye.

Q: Back to the Middle East and Gaza, will it be today also on the agenda?

I do not think so. The Defence Ministers have other issues to [discuss]. Yesterday, we had a long discussion about that, an interesting discussion. I do not think we are going to repeat the same thing with the Defence Ministers.

The Defence Ministers will focus on Ukraine – that is where we are using all our resources, our political will, our financial capacities, our military capacity both industrial and military itself. You cannot imagine the effort that the European armies are doing in order to support Ukraine. You cannot imagine the amount of military warfare that we are giving to Ukraine. We are exhausting our stocks, and we have to replenish it. And my colleague and friend [Commissioner for Internal Market, Thierry] Breton is doing a remarkable job on increasing the capacity of the European industry. We are now already [at] around 700,000 ammunition of 155-mm calibre (precisely 650,000). So, things are going on. We are still not in the target. Our industry is increasing its capacity. But once again, I want to insist on the idea that, while we support Ukraine, even when we consider the possibility of targeting inside Russian territory, we are not in war with Russia. Nobody wants to be in war with Russia. We are just supporting Ukraine. But put [yourself] in the shoes of the Ukrainians who are being bombed by Russians from a place which is out of range of your capacity. You would like to be able to fight on equal terms. This is a war that costs a lot of lives for the Ukrainians. So, we have to support them more.

Q: Does the same also apply to the Palestinians who are now targeted by Israel now, especially that they are [inaudible] invade the West Bank?

Yes, you are perfectly right. Yes, you see that yesterday we had a long discussion about it – you know very well how the was discussion yesterday. But we cannot repeat the same discussion with other Ministers which are not competent on this matter.

Thank you.

Link to the video:https://audiovisual.ec.europa.eu/en/video/I-260237

Source – EEAS

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Today has been shorter than yesterday – not less important but shorter. I am happy to meet you at 16:00 in the afternoon and not at 20:00 in the evening.

Today, the most important issue was the military support to Ukraine, as you could imagine.

Then, we moved to the situation in the Middle East and the Red Sea, before discussing our overall efforts to strengthen our defence and readiness.

Finally, during the lunch, we discussed about the future of our EU Satellite Centre that, as you know, is located in Torrejón, near Madrid.

First, on Ukraine. We had a videoconference with Ukrainian Defence Minister [Rustem] Umerov, who briefed us online on the latest developments on the frontline, on Russia, and the latest news about attacks against cities and energy infrastructure across Ukraine.

I just received another message saying that new and more flying bombs have been falling in several Ukrainian cities.

The military platform of Russia’s attacks on Ukrainian cities and infrastructure should not stay off-limits for elimination. It should not be a sanctuary for the Russians attacking Ukraine.

I think – I continue thinking – that it is about Ukraine’s legitimate right of self-defence, in accordance with the United Nations Charter.

You know where I stand on the questions regarding restrictions on the use of the delivered equipment against Russia and our military involvement, supporting Ukraine to facilitate Ukraine to respond to Russia’s aggression inside the Russian territory.

It is in accordance with international law, and I do not see why someone says “It is going to war against Moscow.” No, we are not going to war against Moscow, we are delivering arms to Ukraine, that’s all. And Ukraine can use these arms in accordance with international law. These warnings are a little bit out of the question.

But Member States decided that this is something that belongs to bilateral decisions of each Member State providing the equipment to Ukraine. The long-range [equipment], in particular, belongs to decisions of the providers to Ukraine. So, there has been a strategic discussion about [this], but it remains a national policy and Member States want it to be a national decision through bilateral [arrangements] with Ukraine.

In fact, I am convinced that a discussion about this topic and other topics should be taking place at the European Union level.  And that is why we have this format of informal ministerials.

The discussion has taken place, everybody explained their position. I explained my position. Member States decided [that] it is a bilateral issue but the fact that the arms provided to Ukraine can be used in order to target inside Russian territory [does] not at all means that we are going to go at war with Russia. This is an exaggeration.

We discussed with Member States the progress made on our military support to Ukraine.

Figures are important. Today, our military support exceeds €43 billion (€43.5 [billion]).

Altogether, civilian and military [support], [it] goes much more than that: it is about €100 billion. But the military alone is €43 [billion], €44 [billion], it changes every day.

The second big news is that the first fighter jets F-16 are already flying on the Ukrainian skies to protect Ukrainian cities and people; and we continue delivering ammunition. Now we are at 65% of our original goal to deliver 1 million of ammunition shells.

There has been an acceleration during the summer. The industry is working at full pace. We are at 65%. Still not there, but it is increasing.

As you know, Belgium announced some days ago that they are going to give more F-16 [fighter jets] to Ukraine. It has been also discussed at the meeting.

From the point of view of financing, we have mobilised the first tranche of windfall profits from Russian frozen assets. It is €1.4 billion. These €1.4 billion have gone through the European Peace Facility (EPF) to support more military assistance for Ukraine. The big news is that now part of it is going directly to Ukraine in order to boost the Ukrainian defence industry.

I think it is good news, it is a good initiative. Working closely with Ukraine is good, boosting the Ukrainian defence industry is more effective and faster. The Ukrainians asked for it – Minister Umerov has been asking for it today again. Many agree, so it is going to be a growing part of our future support.

The next tranche will also be devoted to support the Ukrainian defence industry.

Part of this will be managed by some Member States to purchase from the European defence industry and the global market ammunitions and air defence. They are the two most important priorities: ammunitions and air defence.

Many Member [States] stressed the importance to speed up military deliveries. I fully agree with them. We have to do more and quicker.

By March, we will have the second tranche of the windfall profits and we will continue managing it this way: to the Ukrainian defence industry as much as we can, and as much as they can absorb.

On our Military Assistance Mission (EUMAM Ukraine). Allow me to say that it has been a success, a great success. It is the most successful training mission that the European Union has ever performed. It has trained [some] 60,000 soldiers. And today, the Ministers agreed on raising the target to 75,000 [soldiers] – adding 15,000 more by the end of the year. This is also good news.

We will do more, Ukraine is requesting [it]. This war requires a constant adaptation to the modalities of the war. The training has to be [strengthened] and adapted to the Ukrainian needs.

We want to make this training mission as pragmatic and easy as possible for the Ukrainians to participate in training, making use of Ukrainian trainers and ensuring a stronger coordination with Ukraine and NATO.

In order to do that, I proposed, and Member States agreed on, establishing a small Liaison and Coordination Cell in Kyiv. This would allow us to directly coordinate with other relevant actors. It is not an executive mission inside Ukrainian territory, it is a coordinating cell in Kyiv in order to make our work more effective.

Ministers were all very positive and supportive of these training efforts.

It is also urgent to unblock the €6.6 billion of the Ukraine Assistance Fund, the famous amount of money – that has been blocked for months – of the EPF.

Many ministers repeated today that it is not Ukrainian money, it is their money because they have not been reimbursed for the expenditure that has already happened. Ukraine has already gotten the material, but they have not gotten the reimbursement.

Many ministers repeated today that an urgent solution is needed. I look for it; one way or another, I will find a solution. One way or another.

For our second session, we had discussions with representatives of the United Nations, NATO and the European Parliament, with the new Chair of the SEDE subcommittee [Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann].

Then, we went to the Middle East, the regional escalation between Israel and Hezbollah. We discussed about it with foreign ministers yesterday.

Ministers expressed their support for ongoing ceasefire negotiations.

Another issue that is very much of concern is – I can say that – a war in the West Bank. The Secretary-General of the United Nations [Antonio Guterres] yesterday asked for a ceasefire and a stop of military operations of Israel in the West Bank, which has produced a high number of casualties and destruction of civilian infrastructure.

We are strongly concerned because the war scenario seems now to be going from Gaza to the West Bank. This is also a way of threatening regional stability. Escalation has to be avoided. Let’s hope that the call from the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be heard.

We will support the Lebanese Armed Forces, we are already doing that with the European Peace Facility. We need more support, and this requires additional funding next year.

The United Nations Under-Secretary-General [Jean-Pierre] Lacroix updated us on the United Nations’s efforts in the region. You know how difficult it is for the United Nations agencies – and not only for UNRWA, for several United Nations agencies – to work in Israel and in the occupied territories, including Gaza. We are expressing our strong support to the United Nations and our rejection to the qualification of a terrorist organisation to a United Nations agency.

Then, we went to the Red Sea and the Gulf area.

We notice that the Houthis are launching more sophisticated attacks. The last attack against the Greek-flagged Sounion [ship] last week is the latest grave escalation on the threats for navigation in the Red Sea. We have the [EUNAVFOR] ASPIDES working full steam.

The number of ships going through the Suez Canal is decreasing. And we need more ships. We need more forces.

I asked Member States to increase the capacity of ASPIDES.

In the meantime, the balance is good. ASPIDES has successfully protected more than 217 merchant vessels and destroyed 22 missiles and drones launched by the Houthis.

Now, the big issue is to avoid an environmental catastrophe with the oil that the ship Sounion was transporting. A solution will be found, and we will cooperate on that.

[Operation] ASPIDES certainly is contributing to restore the confidence of maritime shipping and encouraging them to revert to their original routes through the Red Sea.

But for that, ASPIDES has to have the assets it requires. I called the Member States to step up their contribution.

And we also need to tackle the continuous flow of illicit weapons to the Houthis. We are looking into what we can do, and we will further discuss this in the context of the Strategic Review of Operation ASPIDES in November.

We discussed our efforts to strengthen our defence readiness. How the European Union needs to have more capabilities, more investments and how the European Union’s defence industry has to deliver in sufficient quantities what the defence requires.

I have asked Member States to speed up the negotiations of the Defence Industry Programme, where the European Parliament will play an important role.

Several ministers stressed that this also requires mobilising additional funding for defence, and where is this funding supposed to come [from]. I am working closely with the [European] Commission, following the tasking of the European Council, to develop options that I hope will be soon presented to the EU leaders.

This has an important Ukrainian component, but not only. Ukraine is at the core of our defence development, but not only. We have to integrate the Ukrainian defence [industry] into our industrial base. There is a lot to learn from the capacity of Ukrainians to increase their innovation in the field of defence.

That is why, we are opening an EU Defence Innovation Office in Kyiv, together with the Commission. It will be opened shortly, maybe in September. In any case, I am planning to visit Ukraine during September and October, before the end of my term as High Representative, to do the last push for cooperation with Ukraine on the military support of its defence. It has been an important part of my task during the last years.

Cooperation with NATO is also crucial. In September, we will launch an EU-NATO structured dialogue on defence industry.

Finally, we had a lunch with the EU Satellite Centre Director [Rear Admiral Louis Tillier], the new Director. We discussed the strategic role of the Satellite Centre, which are the eyes of Europe in sky – more than in the sky, in space.

The demand for the Satellite Centre’s services is continuously growing. It provides an important insight about what is happening on Earth. You can see what is happening on any corner on earth, and it plays an important role in supporting our partners, Ukraine in particular its fight against Russia’s war of aggression.

The Ministers agreed that we need a strong and well-resourced Satellite Centre to support our ambitious security and defence agenda.

Q&A 

Q. On ammunition, you mentioned 65% – so, 650,000 ammunition if I am right. Does this figure include also the Czech initiative? If I remember well, the target for the end of the year was moved a little – 1.2 million because of the delay and so on. So, will the EU be able to deliver this time on ammunition?

On restrictions of use of weapons, would you say that countries that keep restrictions are basically protecting Russia?

On the second question, certainly not. There is no European country that is protecting Russia. We protect Ukraine. We decided that it is a national policy. We can have a strategic discussion among us in order to look for common ground. Defence is a national policy, it is not a secret – nothing new. Foreign policy is a national policy also. Look, the Hungarian Minister for Foreign Affairs [Péter Szijjártó] is in Moscow today. Yesterday, he was here, today he is in Moscow. Why? Because foreign policy – like it or not – is a national policy. So, they can go to Moscow, to Beijing, wherever they want. They have a duty. They have the duty of cooperating loyally in building a Common Foreign [and Security] Policy. Common. “Common” does not mean unique. “Common” means common. They may have their own policy, but they have to cooperate [with] loyalty in order to build a Common Foreign Policy. In the field of defence, it is the same thing. Defence is a national policy. The Commission has no competences in defence, but the Member States want to build a Common Defence Policy, I am in charge of doing that and pushing for it. That is why I present to the members of the Defence Ministers Council proposals to hold a strategic debate. And we discussed this in an informal meeting. I have my opinion; others have other opinions. Finally, they decided: this is a national competence, each one will do whatever they think is appropriate. Good – it is their decision. But this does not mean that they want to protect Russia. Equally, to think and to believe that it is legitimate in accordance with international law to target inside the territory of the aggressor –  because there is one aggressor – it’s because there is an aggression that it is a war – it does not mean to go to war. We are not at war with Moscow. So, no one is protecting anyone, [and] we should avoid such exaggerations if we want to discuss seriously about these matters.

And [about] the target. Look, we are accelerating more and more. We are producing quicker. The industry is increasing capacity, they are working at full capacity, and they are increasing it. I hope that by the end of the year we will reach the target, both us and the Czech initiative – that, by the way, is also pushing for the target; it was announced in February in Munich.

Q. High Representative, you talked about the EU training mission for Ukrainian soldiers and the entries and the target of number of soldiers to be trained. Could you tell us about the discussion around where that training should happen? The Ukrainians have requested that some of them should be done inside Ukraine. Did you hear that request again today from the Ukrainian Minister? Was there any discussion about it and what is your view on that question?

You know, to wear a uniform does not make you a soldier. You can wear a uniform, have a helmet, it does not make you a soldier. In order to be a soldier, you need to be trained. And this is more and more important because the warfare today is quite sophisticated, and to send a soldier with a helmet and a uniform to the frontline without adequate training is to send them to die, quickly. So, training is lifesaving. Training is so important when people have to go to fight. That is why we are so proud of the fact that we have been training 60,000 soldiers. To be trained in Ukraine, why not? They are closer to the environment where they will have to fight, it could be more appropriate maybe. Some Member States were ready, others were reluctant. Finally, we decided that the training will be as close as possible to Ukraine but not in Ukrainian territory, not on Ukrainian land. But a cell in Kyiv will be opened in order to ensure the best coordination with Ukraine and our partners. By the way, to be closer to the border – you know, there are countries that are very far away from Ukraine, and they are doing an excellent work and training a lot of soldiers, providing them with a high-quality training, so maybe it is not so decisive.

Q. On the restrictions of the use of weapons for Ukraine, are there legal arguments from Member States that are against to lift the restrictions, or is it just a political position? You have heard the different Ministers, the different Member States, the different positions, but the differences are related to political considerations or are there also legal doubts about the possibility of targeting Russian soil?

According to international law, the aggresse is legitimate to attack targets inside the territory of the aggressor. There is nothing in international law that prevents Ukraine from responding to the Russian aggression inside the Russian territory, and logically it should not be a sanctuary for the places where the attacks are being launched. I think the reluctance is due to political reasons – very much respectful and serious [reasons]. Member States decided to do it the way they have decided, but I think it is mainly for political reasons.

Q. On this coordination cell in Kyiv, are there already more details? How big or how small will it be? How many people? What type of personnel will it have, is it military, civilian? How can we figure out this coordination cell?

I would not pay a lot of importance. It is not something very noticeable. A coordination cell is a coordination cell. It is not very big. I do not know, three, four, five people, maybe six. I do not see that great issue. And military or civilian? Well, I suppose it will be mostly military. If they have to coordinate training of the military, it will be mainly people who knows what they are talking about. I do not see the bureaucrats of Berlaymont going to Kyiv to tell anyone how the military has to be trained. And this is something that requires professional skills. But nothing important. Well, important, yes sure. But I do not see something that could create any kind of controversy.

Q. Le quería preguntar por la cuestión de los fundos bloqueados por Hungría. Ayer, le prometió al ministro [de Asuntos Exteriores de Ucrania, Dmytro] Kuleba que buscaría cualquier forma de sortear esta situación y hoy has dicho que va a encontrar una solución de una forma u otra. ¿Nos podría dar alguna pista de qué tiene en mente y si cree que se puede resolver al asunto antes de que acabe su mandato?

Hoy sé que no han hablado de Venezuela, pero tenemos une cuestión de ayer que nos queda pendiente. A partir de que la Unión Europea decidió que no iba a reconocer al presidente Maduro, ya se llevó el tema de reconocer el triunfo de Edmundo Gonzalez como ganador de las elecciones. Me gustaría saber si usted es partidario de esta opción si cree que esta una buena opción, si cree que es una buena opción dada la situación que hay ahora en Venezuela.

Todo parece indicar por la información que la oposición ha suministrado, que ciertamente el resultado electoral es favorable a Edmundo [Gonzalez]. Y así lo consideraron los ministros, pero no fueron más allá. Fueron claramente lo que me parece políticamente relevante que es decirle al señor Maduro: “Mire, usted no ha ganado las elecciones. No consideramos que haya usted ganado las elecciones.” Por lo menos no nos lo ha probado. No lo ha probado. Lo ha declarado, pero no lo ha probado. Y el competente para hacerlo, que es la Comisión Nacional Electoral, no ha suministrado la información para que podamos verificarlo. Por lo tanto, no le podemos considerar democrática y legítimamente elegido. Supongo que esta declaración que hago hoy me valdrá otra serie de calificativos por parte de las autoridades venezolanas. Puede que sean las mismas que ayer o puede que sean algunos nuevos, pero en todo caso es lo que los ministros decidieron y sobre él no dijeron nada más. Pero la historia no se termina ayer vamos a seguir estudiando y decidiendo al respecto. Piensen que, en cualquier caso, Maduro será presidente interino hasta que se produzca el momento en el que se debería proceder al relevo de presidencias. Esto será en enero. De aquí a enero hay tiempo.

[Sobre los fondos,] pues no, no se lo puedo contar porque todavía no tengo la solución, pero la tendré.

Link to the video: https://audiovisual.ec.europa.eu/en/video/I-260138

Soure – EEAS