NATO Foreign Ministers chart way forward in addressing Russian sabotage

Good afternoon.

We have just concluded our two-day meeting of NATO Foreign Ministers. And I can only say we had very productive discussions.

Obviously, we addressed the situation in Ukraine and the Middle East. How we can better support Ukraine through the long winter ahead and help it prevail against the Russian war of aggression. And Russia’s malign activities on NATO territory were discussed.

Yesterday, NATO Ministers were joined by His Majesty King Abdullah II of Jordan. Jordan is one of NATO’s most important partners in the Middle East. I want to thank His Majesty for his personal leadership and support to our Alliance.

In times like these, it is important to have friends and partners around the globe. And I am glad to say that His Majesty is a steadfast friend of NATO and has been so now for many years.

We will open our NATO Liaison Office in Amman soon to further deepen these ties.

Yesterday, we discussed Iran’s destabilising role in its immediate neighbourhood, backing militant groups. And its support for Russia’s illegal war in Europe through the provision of deadly Shahed drones.

The increasing alignment of Russia, China, North Korea and Iran highlights the global nature of the threats we face. Including the escalating dangers of the ongoing war in Ukraine. In return for troops and weapons, Russia is providing North Korea with support for its missile and nuclear programmes. These developments could destabilise the Korean Peninsula and even threaten the United States. So Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine threatens us all.

And that is why we will continue to stand together – Europe and North America – alongside our international partners, to keep our 1 billion people safe.

We also had a working dinner of the NATO-Ukraine Council, with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Andrii Sybiha.

Ukraine is facing relentless bombardment targeting civilian areas and critical infrastructure. And Russia is making gains along the frontline, though at a high cost. This could be Ukraine’s most difficult winter since 2022.

We discussed what more Allies can do to provide critical ammunition and air defences, as Russia steps up its attacks and expands the war with the aid of North Korean troops and weapons.

Allies are working to deliver on the financial pledge of 40 billion euros in security assistance for Ukraine in 2024.

And I expect the new command in Wiesbaden, the NATO Security Assistance and Training for Ukraine, to be fully operational by the end of this year.

But we must do more than just keep Ukraine in the fight. We must provide enough support to change the trajectory of this conflict once and for all.

Yesterday we were also joined by the new EU High Representative, Kaja Kallas.

The EU is an essential partner and we cooperate on a range of issues: From our support to Ukraine, to military mobility, and ramping up defence production. I am looking forward to building on this cooperation.

Today, Ministers discussed Russia’s increasingly aggressive posture, as well as its escalating campaign of hostile actions in NATO countries.

We have seen a steep increase of these attacks, and we must hold the perpetrators to account.

Both Russia and China have tried to destabilise our countries and divide our societies with acts of sabotage, cyber-attacks, and energy blackmail.

So today Ministers agreed a set of proactive measures to counter Russia’s hostile and cyber activities. These include enhanced intelligence exchange, more exercises, better protection of critical infrastructure, improved cyber defence, and tougher action against Russia’s shadow fleet of oil exporting ships. And we will work closely together with the EU on these issues.

And with that I am ready to take your questions.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Thank you. We’ll start with Interfax, in the middle there.

Iryna Somer, Interfax Ukraine
Thank you, Farah. Goedemiddag, Secretary General. News Agency Interfax Ukraine, Iryna Somer. You just said that it’s not enough to support Ukraine, but we have to provide assistance which change trajectory of this war. Actually, what do you mean concretely? And second question if, if I may, of course, this weekend, this Sunday, President of Ukraine, Zelenskyy, during the press conference with a new president of European Council, Costa, said that he wants to see at the negotiation table with Russia, EU and NATO. I’m not asking you about conditions for this negotiation. We heard you yesterday. I would like to know if you do aware about this position of Ukrainian side, and do you really actually see NATO as a negotiator at the negotiation table? Thank you.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Well, let’s combine the two questions, because changing the trajectory means that we want to bring Ukraine in a position of strength, so that one day, the Ukrainian government can enter into talks with the Russians on how to end this conflict. But it should be the Ukrainian government to decide that, and it should be from a position of strength. So, changing the trajectory means that where the front line is now moving westwards, we have to make sure that Ukraine is in a position of strength, so that in those negotiations, Ukraine can get what it wants, and we can prevent Putin from getting what he wanted when he started his full onslaught on Ukraine.

Obviously, when we get to that moment, and I think we all pray for the moment when that will arrive, for that moment to arrive, where peace talks could start, we will have to discuss many things. It will be Ukraine in the lead, but at the same time, there will [inaudible] be others involved. I’m not going now to speculate who will be at the table or who will not be at the table, because I think we should concentrate completely and fully now on making sure that Ukraine gets to that position. So, no comments from me now on who should then be negotiating.
NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, thank you. We’ll go to Deutsche Welle. Yeah, in the fourth row.

Xenia Polska, Deutsche Welle
Thank you for this opportunity. Hi, I’m Xenia Polska, Deutsche Welle, and my question is quite, well, it’s not simple, but it sounds simple. Is Ukraine closer now to NATO membership than it was before this meeting? Because we all know what they came here with, and their position was quite strong and categorical that there is no alternative. So, is it closer now to being a NATO member or not?

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Well, let’s not forget that in 2008 already in Bucharest, there was the decision that the future of Ukraine should be at NATO, and we have had the decision in Washington on the irreversible path towards NATO.

And basically, since early 2022 countries have been working on bilateral agreements with Ukraine to make sure that we do everything to get them in a position of strength. We have the pledge. We have the command in Wiesbaden, and all of this is building the bridge towards NATO. But I think what Allies also agree upon is that the first priority now should be for Ukraine to be in that position, that they can start negotiations from this position of strength with the Russians.

That now is priority number one, two and three, and that’s why I’m also avoiding to add my thoughts to the many thoughts going around now on what peace talks could look like, who should be sat at the table, what security guarantees would exactly look like, because first we have to do that first step. And the first step is to make sure that Ukraine, from the back foot now gets in a position of strength, that is changing the trajectory. That’s why I’m using that word, to make sure that they’re able to start those talks, and then we have here in this room even, but I know Zelenskyy and with his team, for him, that is also true, they have the best people around to think how they can navigate that discussion.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, I’ll go to AFP. Third row.

Max Delaney, AFP
Thank you very much, Secretary General. Max Delaney, AFP, just wanted to come back on something you said in your introduction, you said that Russia is now supporting North Korea’s missile and nuclear programs, which I think before you were always warning and the G7 was warning about potential support. So, has this intelligence assessment changed, that Russia is now providing nuclear support to North Korea, and how? Can you give us any details on that?
And then on the hybrid strategy that you’re potentially working on for the Hague, you say you’ve agreed to come up with proactive measures. Once again, there’s a perception that NATO is acting too slowly, too cautiously, and punching below its weight on trying to deter Russia from doing what it’s doing. How can you assure people living in Europe that NATO is doing something now to stop Russia’s actions?

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Yes, well, on your first question, of course, I’m not going into intelligence information we have. But more generally, let me say we should not be naive. And when I’m saying this, then it is because we should not be naive, and there’s every reason to make that statement, that nuclear technology, missile technology, is flowing into North Korea, and therefore is a risk now that North Korea will use it, not only to be a threat to us here, but also to the US mainland and, of course, to the region, including the Republic of Korea, South Korea and Japan.
On the second question, it is and-and.

So, the Alliance, and all Allies are working very hard to make sure when it comes to sabotage, cyber-attacks, energy blackmail, that we take all the measures necessary to counter that. It’s first of all the Allies doing that, and then NATO as a collective, making sure that we gather all the information, that we have the necessary agencies in place. So, this is not about a sort of debate we will have moving towards the Hague Summit, but we will use the Hague Summit to take stock, to make sure that we have the latest ideas on the table, what we can do more. But if some good ideas come up to do even more than we are already doing, you can be assured we will implement them, not around the Hague Summit, but immediately. But it will be a stock taking moment on all of this.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, we’ll go to The Insider, back row, as well.

Anastasia Mihaylova, The Insider
Anastasia Mihaylova, The Insider. Putin, many times told about threats of nuclear weapon. What do you think about these threats, and what NATO will do if it’s not only a threat?

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Let me first of all say that we take nuclear issues extremely seriously. There’s no doubt. But let’s also agree that there is a lot of saber-rattling coming out of Russia, and Russia wants us to discuss its nuclear capability, and we don’t want to spend time on this. We have to make sure that our deterrence is strong, and it is strong, that we can fight back to any adversary, to any enemy who tries to do it harm.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, thank you. We’ll go to Yonhap.

Binna Chung, Yonhap News Agency
Thank you. Binna from Yonhap News Agency. Yesterday, you said about the North Korean troops, just you’re going just to make a general statement. But since the meeting is over, I was wondering if the minister from Ukraine has shared any details on the casualties or numbers during the meeting. And also this morning, you mentioned about the political chaos in South Korea, and are you worried that the ongoing political chaos can affect the cooperation with NATO and between NATO and South Korea regarding the DPRK troops issue? Thank you.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
On the first question, there’s nothing new I can share now. Maybe you can also check in with the Ukrainians, whether they can share something directly with you. I don’t think I should do that. Then on the Republic of Korea, so what’s happening in South Korea, this is a, as you know, a fast moving situation. And Korea, the Republic of Korea, is an important partner to NATO, and therefore we are monitoring developments closely of what is happening now in Seoul and in the wider South Korea.

I think that the announcement of the end of martial law indicates South Korea’s ongoing commitment to the rule of law. We continue to monitor the developments. And on your specific question, South Korea is a strong supporter of Ukraine, and I expect it will remain so, and our partnership with Seoul has deepened as global threats have grown over the last couple of years, and we commend the Republic of Korea for its significant political and practical support to Ukraine. And as I said this morning, the relationship between NATO and South Korea is ironclad.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, we’ll go to Assabah, second row.

Assia Bouguerra, Assabah
Thank you, Secretary General. I’m Assia from Tunisia, and as you have noticed, there is a lot of journalists from the Middle East. Now I have [inaudible] to the situation in the Middle East. And you mentioned the participation of King of Jordan in your meetings. So, was there any clear or concrete measures to what’s going on in Gaza where thousands were killed, or regarding ceasefire in Lebanon, regarding the advancement, or the advancing of the militia in Aleppo, Syria? Was there any position of NATO, regarding, yesterday UN declaration that 157 nations recognized the Palestinian state? Thank you.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Yes. Thank you for this very relevant question. Let me first make clear, of course, and we know all of us and all of you noticed that NATO is a transatlantic defence organization. That means that it doesn’t extend to the Middle East.

However, we are very much following what’s happening there. Of course, NATO is active in some countries on their request to help them building up, for example, their defence forces. Take, for example, the NATO Mission Iraq, but also in other countries, in the Southern neighborhoods, we have a very close contact. Of course, with Jordan. We have a very close cooperation. We are going to open an office in Amman early next year to basically facilitate that relationship.

And yesterday was an opportunity for us, with somebody who is probably more than anyone, able to explain what is happening in the region, give his views on this, not to come to decisions, but for us as 32 Allies to understand better, to navigate the crisis.

We are all very worried, obviously, about the humanitarian situation in Gaza. We applaud the cease fire in Lebanon, but we should not be naive. Let’s hope that the cease fire holds, but that means that Iran and its proxies have to live up to what they committed in this cease fire. And Iran also came up in the discussions yesterday, because we know that there is this connection between what is happening in Ukraine and Iran. Of course, China, North Korea, but also Iran.

Russia is paying Iran for its help in the war Russia is at this moment, deploying against Ukraine. Through the Shahed drones, missiles, and Iran is getting money for that. And that money is being used to prop up Hamas and other proxies in the Middle East, and to steer conflict even beyond the Middle East.

So all of this is getting more and more connected, the Indo Pacific, the Euro Atlantic, and what is happening, of course, in the Middle East, and therefore that visit of the King of Jordan was extremely important. But obviously NATO is not involved in providing security directly. As my predecessor said, we cannot end every conflict or be active in every theater, but we are very much involved in a sense that, for example, we are helping out in a number of countries in developing their defense capabilities.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, thank you. I’ll go to Reuters over there.

Andrew Gray, Reuters
Thank you Secretary General, Andrew Gray from Reuters. On defence spending, President elect Trump said in August that he would insist that every NATO Ally spend at least 3% of GDP on defence. He called 2% the steal of the century. You visited President elect Trump recently. Should all NATO Allies now be aiming for that 3% figure?

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Let me first of all say that it was President Trump who, after we took a decision in Wales in 2014, when he came on board as president of the US in 2016, 2017, has pushed us to ramp up defence spending. And now NATO, so, NATO territory, if you would, for a moment, exclude the US, is at that 2% and I think that’s to a large part thanks to Trump, also because we feel the need.

And particularly last couple of years, the war in Ukraine has very much advised us to do more. But it started, and I think crucial in all of this has been the Trump push, starting in 2016, 2017, and I’ve said before, not because of Trump, but I believe strongly, and I know many Allies believe strongly that 2% is simply not enough. That is simply not enough, if longer term, we want to keep our deterrence at the level it is now.

Now it is okay, and we can now defend ourselves, and nobody should try to attack us. But I want that to stay the same in four or five years. So that is the debate we will be having. And then the question will be, what should the percentage be? Is that one percentage or would you look at country specific targets given their capability gaps? That’s a debate we will need to have within the Alliance. But it is absolutely clear, if you want to keep the deterrence at the present level, 2% is not enough, and then to expand on that, the defence industrial base we are producing not enough at too high prices, and the delivery is too slow. So, defence industry needs to put in more shifts. Needs to put in more production lines.

We cannot have a situation where we just pay more for the same and we see large kickbacks to the shareholders. And that’s the debate we are having with the defence industry, and that is why this transatlantic corporation, from Türkiye up to the US and all the defence industrial companies in the European Union, we need to work closely together to make sure that we produce at a much higher rate and an acceptable price.

And I know that most of the CEOs of the defence companies agree with me, and they see, of course, the money going around, and they also see that the South Korean defence industrial base is getting into the market in a number of countries, who are now buying South Korean, because our own defence companies are not producing at the rate we need. Okay.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Thank you. We have to wrap up soon. So, I’ll take two more questions, one from Al Arabiya, and then BBC Russian after that. Thank you.

Hadley Gamble, Al Arabiya
Good afternoon. Secretary General, you’re talking about increasing NATO spending at a time when Europe as a whole is suffering from anaemic growth. Germany is the sick man of Europe. How do you anticipate these countries are going to pay for that? And are European citizens going to have to take a serious haircut in those next few years? If we’re talking about 3% to 4% and maybe beyond that.

And separately, Emmanuel Macron and Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, have suggested that they will hold a conference on Gaza in June, and with NATO at least in an advisory role in the region. Do you anticipate that you’ll attend that conference?

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
On the second question, I cannot yet give you the answer. So we have to look into exactly what the conference will be, and I was too busy chairing all these meetings. So, we will come back to that second question.

On the on the first question, this is key and the key issue is this, that if we would agree, and I am absolutely convinced this is the case, that we cannot stick to the 2% because then we cannot, longer term, keep our deterrence at the level it is now. That means that we have to spend more.

And we don’t have to spend tens of percent, percentage points. We have to spend more than 2%, it will move up to whatever percentage. But when you look what countries are spending on pensions, on the Social Security system and on health, you need a fraction of that spending to make sure that the defence spending gets to a level where we can sustain our deterrence longer term. And this is for politicians to decide on. This is making choices in scarcity, because there are always too many demands on the money, which is always limited.

And this is why you have politicians. To one, make sure that there are enough jobs, that the economy is doing well. And secondly, to keep your country safe. This is about keeping the country safe, to keep the whole of the Alliance, all 32 nations, safe longer term. And if then the outcome will be that we would stick to the 2% because we somehow, and I would find this very strange, is that will be the outcome. I don’t accept it, and I don’t expect it, but if the outcome will be we will stick to the 2% then that is a deliberate choice politicians have to explain to their voters.

But if we will get to what I expect, and I will fight for, spend much more than a 2% because we have to keep our deterrence at a level where we can keep our Alliance safe and we are defensive Alliance, and let me stress that again, an Alliance based on values and democracy, if we want to keep that Alliance safe long term, I’m convinced we will take good decisions over the next month. It will be a difficult debate, and I also will try, myself to reach out to the 1 billion people living in NATO territory, to also explain directly to them in a step by step approach, why this is necessary and therefore also maybe helping a bit the political debates in some of these countries.

NATO Spokesperson Farah Dakhlallah
Okay, thank you. Last one to BBC Russian, and then it’s a wrap. Thank you.

Sergey Goryashko, BBC Russian
Good afternoon, Secretary General. Sergey Goryashko, BBC Russian. So you’ve mentioned yesterday that Vladimir Putin is advancing his goals in Ukraine, that he is moving the front line now from the east to the west, and we clearly see that even though he didn’t probably reach all of his goals, he’s not losing yet. So what do you think could stop him from advancing his goals, both in Ukraine and outside the country. As you’ve mentioned, other hybrid threats from Russia. Thank you.

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte
Well, this is about the first question, changing the trajectory and making sure that we do everything to prop up Ukraine and get as much as possible, of course, air defence systems into Ukraine, particularly focusing on the energy grid, but also getting the offensive weapons into Ukraine so that they can fight back.

And we have to make sure that they get trained. We have to make sure, obviously, also that enough people are available within Ukraine. This is a debate Ukraine needs to have internally, but we do need to do all of this, these three things at the same time, making sure they are trained. I commend what France has been doing with the Anne of Kyiv brigade being trained in France.
Of course, we need probably more people to move to the front line, but particularly we as an Alliance, have to make sure that Ukraine, all Allies working on this, has what it takes to get to a position of strength that when that day comes when they want to start talks, that Ukraine is willing to do that and Putin realizes that there is no escape.